Welcome back! We are now in week eight of Reading The Wheel of Time, and like last week, we are drifting through a hazy lull, like the quiet before the storm. In this section, covering chapters 27 and 28, Perrin and Nynaeve are feeling anxious and frustrated, while Egwene and Elyas are patient and Moiraine, as ever, follows the Pattern and plays things close to the vest.
I really enjoyed the feeling of these two chapters. Just like the previous section, these chapters are a pause in the pacing and a chance to set up for the next round of action. We the readers are like Egwene, dancing with the Traveling People and enjoying ourselves, because this may be the last opportunity we have to do so. (Well, we the readers get to enjoy the bad things too, but that’s our privilege as beings on the other side of the fourth wall.)
Perrin finds it difficult to relax as he, Elyas, and Egwene remain traveling with the Tinkers. He feels restless, and notes that Elyas seems uncomfortable as well, his wolf-like attitude at odds with the peaceful and playful Tinkers who also carry a great wariness about them, which reminds Perrin of deer; obviously cautious despite their friendliness and seemingly ready to run away at the sign of any clear threat.
But although Elyas seems no more able to adjust to the Tuatha’an’s ways and attitudes than they are to his, when Perrin suggests leaving Elyas resists. He tells Perrin that something is telling him to wait, that they should rest while they can. Perrin is worried about being found by Trollocs or a Fade, concerned for the Tinkers’ safety as well as their own, but Elyas won’t budge, or explain what the “something” is. Perrin has nightmares about the Tinkers’ camp being attacked—ordinary nightmares—but everyone around him remains relaxed and waiting as the band of travelers moves slowly on.
Even Egwene relaxes, spending time with Ila, the leader’s wife, or with Aram, their grandson, dancing and enjoying herself. Perrin finds himself embarrassed by some of the women dancing more sensually, but Egwene enjoys flirting and being close with Aram and even begins to learn one of the slow, hip-swiveling dances. Perrin confronts her, angry that Egwene appears—to him at least—to have become distracted from their mission by pleasant times and a handsome boy. But Egwene suggests that they need to enjoy themselves while they can, that it might be their last chance.
Perrin is also aware of the wolves, whose irritation at the delay starts to match Perrin’s own. His ability to understand them appears to be growing as even from a distance he know their personalities now and their thoughts.
And then one night Perrin’s dream is different. He dreams that he is home in Master Luhan’s house, Mistress Luhan there with him as he sharpens his axe and a wolf sleeps at the door. But then Ba’alzamon appears, and he sets the wolf on fire, mocking it as a useless protection. Perrin tries to put out the fire but the wolf turns to ash against his hands. He scrambles to protect himself, catching up his axe, but Ba’alzamon tells him he cannot run or hide, that if he is the one he will not escape. He says that he marks Perrin as his, and a raven flies out of his hand and pecks out Perrin’s left eye.
And then Perrin wakes up. Elyas is there, clearly about to wake him, and the wolves are howling and full of thoughts of pain and fire and kill. Elyas tells him simply that it is time to go, and they get to work gathering up their belongings and saying hasty goodbyes. Perrin is surprised that Egwene has no objections to leaving.
The wolves come to greet them once they are free of the camp and they communicate Perrin’s dream to Elyas. They also tell Perrin that his safety with them will only be truly complete once he accepts them in his mind and in his heart. But Perrin doesn’t want to hear it and somehow pushes them out of his head.
Meanwhile, Moiraine, Lan, and Nynaeve arrive at Whitebridge. Nynaeve is in a bad mood, frustrated that she can’t get the answers she wants from Moiraine, and angry at herself as the idea of embracing the One Power keeps cropping up in her mind. She regards it as “filthy” but still considers that she might embrace it if she has to, to get revenge on Moiraine if anything happens to Perrin, Rand, Mat, and Egwene. She’s irritated by Lan too, feeling as though he is constantly watching her and embarrassed that Moiraine seems to be winning in all their conversations.
Nynaeve and her companions can feel a tension building, a sense that Moiraine explains in the increasing focus of the Dark One. And then they reach the town on the other side of Whitebridge and find destruction there. The air is thick with the smell of smoke and they can see buildings that have been burned to the ground. The people seem afraid and scattered, but Moiraine gets many to talk to her. They don’t tell the truth much, though, denying that anything happened or telling stories about overturned lamps, that a man in the town was meddling with the One Power, or that the town had been attacked by bandits. The mention of trouble coming on a boat from upriver catches Nynaeve’s attention, though.
They go to an inn to eat, the same one that Thom, Mat, and Rand patronized before they had to sneak away, and Lan has a bit of a confrontation with the local militia when a soldier becomes suspicious of the strangers. But Lan easily wins the test of wills and the militiaman leaves after bidding them to hurry about their business and depart the town quickly. Moiraine tells them that she knows the two boys who lost their coins were in the same room only a day or so ago, and that she knows they didn’t take the boat further downriver. She decides it will be best to go looking for the one boy who still has his coin, as she doesn’t feel confident tracking the other two any further. She tells Nynaeve that they will undoubtedly go to Caemlyn and she can find them there, and that a Myrddraal was there as well. When Nynaeve reminds her about Egwene, Moiraine says that of course she hopes to find her and that she does not easily give up young women with that much power, but that “it will be as the Wheel weaves.” Nynaeve is put off by this, wondering if she herself is also one of those women that Moiraine will not easily let go of, and silently promising herself that it won’t be that easy.
These two chapters fit together really well, I think, and there is a nice parallel created between Perrin’s anxious frustrations with Elyas and Egwene and Nynaeve’s anger towards Moiraine. Perrin and Nynaeve both have a sense of urgency driving them but little knowledge of what to do about it, while Elyas and Moiraine have wisdom and experience to guide them and ask that others follow their lead without much explanation. I suppose, then, that Lan and Egwene are in the middle of this analogy I’ve drawn; Lan follows Moiraine because of the bond between them, clearly born out of respect for her status as Aes Sedai but also it seems from long acquaintance together. But how about Egwene? I am interested in how easily she seems to have accepted the idea of having a bit of respite with the Travelers. Despite Perrin’s weird conviction that she is going to fall in love with Aram and stay with him, it seems pretty clear that she’s just having a last bit of childish fun before she continues on the path that will lead to her becoming Aes Sedai and assuming a life of seriousness and hard work. Perhaps Egwene trusts Elyas’s instincts more than Perrin does, or perhaps she has some sense of her own that the danger is not quite so near just yet. I’d love to have a chapter from Egwene’s point of view right about now, I feel like a lot of her motivations are still unclear and I’d like to have her character developed a little more past being the super capable, level-headed “Hermione” of the group.
Speaking of Harry Potter, wizards really do like to play their cards close to the vest. Whether it be Dumbledore, Moiraine, Gandalf, or the Merlin figure they all draw so much of their foundations from, one of the hallmarks of these wise, guiding figures is how much crucial information they keep from the hero. Sometimes this is to manipulate the hero into filling a role they might not have chosen if they had all the facts, other times it is an attempt to reduce the wizard’s influence on the outcome. It can also be out of fear, or because they are just too busy to get around to it–often, however, it can be out of a sense of superiority. Take, for example, Gandalf’s reunion with Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas when he reveals himself as Gandalf the White. There they are, assuming he’s Saruman, practically ready to kill him on the spot, and Gandalf is too busy making sly comments and amusing himself to reassure them.
“‘My name!” said the old man again. “Have you not guessed it already? You have heard it before, I think. Yes, you have heard it before.'” (The Two Towers, ch 5, p 102)
Granted, Gandalf claims to be a little out of himself at the time due to the whole rebirth as “the White” and everything, but I still think the wizard was having a good laugh at his friends’ expense.
As for Moiraine? At this point it’s hard to tell with Moiraine which motivation, or combination of motivations, is causing her to offer so little of her knowledge to the people she has traveling with her. Of course the distrust of Aes Sedai is probably a big factor in her holding her tongue. I kept thinking about the coins that Rand and Mat gave away to Domon—how they never would have given them away on the boat had they known it would help Moiraine find them again, and how they never would have kept them in the first place had they known what they really were. So Moiraine’s silence on the nature of the coins makes sense. But there is also something a little insidious about her silence over the matter of the boys and how she clearly knows that one of them is the Dragon Reborn. The danger for whoever is the One is so much greater than the boys could ever comprehend and one gets the sense that, by keeping the possible identity from them, she intends to have a certain amount of control over whomever it turns out to be. This is pretty suspect, but to be fair, how could she really tell these young boys the truth, in the midst of danger and flight, and have them even begin to understand or know how to handle the information? As in many cases, the answer is not so clear as one might wish. Such, I suppose, is the burden of power. (That sounds like something Gandalf might say, right?)
I can’t blame Nynaeve for picking up on some of that. Part of her hostility towards Moiraine is certainly born from prejudice against Aes Sedai, but Moiraine’s attitude is never going to put Nynaeve at ease, and sentences like “I do not easily give up young women with that much ability once I have found them,” certainly have a pretty ominous sound. Moiraine sounds like she’s claiming ownership over Egwene, and that would make me as suspicious as it does Nynaeve. On the other hand, I get the feeling that if Nynaeve could bring herself to try an ounce of honey with Moiraine, instead of a gallon of vinegar, she might get a little farther.
Elyas, meanwhile, is taking over a similar role for Perrin and Egwene, now that they are separated from Moiraine. He also is less than forthcoming, but that feels more like it’s just due to his nature rather than any tricky wizard stuff. Like an animal, like the wolves to whom he belongs, he lives in the moment, and I think that the “something telling [him] to wait” which he refers to is just plain instinct. He doesn’t explain it to Perrin because there are no words to explain it. In addition to his wolfy wisdom, he has also clearly seen a lot, has traveled and learned much of the world, has experience with the Aes Sedai and many other people from many lands, and is a little more direct in viewing Perrin and Egwene as naive children. But he’s also, I think, more quick to recognize their strengths and cleverness, especially Egwene. I loved the way he laughed at her putdown to Perrin at the end of the chapter.
“Ila was giving me advice on being a woman,” Egwene replied absently.
…. “Advice! Nobody tells us how to be men. We just are.”
“That,” Egwene said, “is probably why you make such a bad job of it.” Up ahead, Elyas cackled loudly.
I guess Elyas has his own reasons to think that men make a bad job of being men.
Overall, I think that the tension between the characters is what drives this section and creates a sense of urgency that in some ways is even more striking for me than some of the more action-based chapters. Perrin’s fear that the Traveling People will be caught in the crossfire when the servants of the Dark One show up and his sense of tension with the wolves who wish to adopt him, the itch at Nyneave’s back and her ongoing sense of helplessness, the fact that Elyas and Moiraine know things that our point of view characters do not, all build these relatively uneventful chapters into something that is pushing me to the edge of my seat. I really want Perrin to accept the wolves, and I also really want to know more about what Moiraine is thinking. Is she as calm as she outwardly appears? Does she feel even remotely in control of what is happening, or is she clinging on to this faith in the Pattern with her fingernails? I think knowing that Moiraine was scared would actually help Nynaeve, and I wouldn’t mind seeing it either.
That’s it for this week’s analysis, and I will just end on a slightly less cerebral note with the paltry complaint of why does everything have so many names? I don’t mind things having a technical name and a more casual name, but it’s more like stuff has three or four, and I don’t know what to call anything when I talk about them here. Do I call them Tinkers or Traveling People or Tuatha’an? Do I use the term Myrddraal, or Fade, or Halfman? Does it matter? I really want the narrative to tell me which terms should be the dominant terms, even if different characters use different words sometimes. But at least I think I’m spelling them all correctly.
Next week we’re going to cover Chapters 29 and 30, where things get even creeper (in my humble opinion) than Ba’alzamon’s rat torture and wolf-burning, and spend some time with my very least favorite antagonists, the Children of the Light and their intensely discomfiting bad-cop, good-cop routine.
Sylas K Barrett really loves wizards but may have had to look at Wheel of Time spelling like eight times.
Got to say I love your frustration with names lol. Fade, or Myrddraal is I think a technique Robert Jordan used to try and describe the vastness of a continent that they are on ho colloquisms start. Myrddraal is the tecnical term. Fade us probably the most common reference in the part of the world the book is set. Just like a jersey can be called a jumper or sweater or top. Many things in the real world can have multiple names based or region. WoT is attempting to set up a whole world.
Just 3 or 4 names that would be almost easy. I think RJ has at least 7 for everything, and he keeps adding new ones with each culture you meet, its enough to drive you a little over the edge.
Excellent article as usual.
I notice that you seemed to be a bit annoyed by the lack of sharing concerning important informations. Be aware : it is a very commun pattern in the WoT. Sometime it is justified, sometimes it’s just frustrating !
Also people in WoT – especially Aes Sedai – are manipulatives-paranoïds persons. But hey ! At least that fact create some weird/fucked up/dramatic situation, for our entertainement !
Sorry for my poor english, and good luck for your reading !
#1 + #2 To be fair, the names would probably frustrate me a less if I was just reading and not trying to talk about everything. It makes sense that people in different areas would have different names for things, that groups would have different names for themselves. Or like how songs have different names in different areas but the same tunes; I definitely laughed aloud when Perrin asked the Tuatha’an to play “The Tinker Has My Pots.” I also suppose this is the struggle with really close 3rd person narration, too; since we’re in individuals’ heads, the narration can’t just pick one term to stick to for the reader’s sake. But I guess I can, if I want to. ;-)
Neverborn!
@Cluric (#3) I think that the balance between revealing too much and not revealing enough is a delicate one for any writer to strike, especially an author who is creating an entire fictional world. A little bit of frustration on my part is a good thing, I think; as you say, it’s important to keep up that tension and drama. But also I imagine that the style of the read artificially increases my frustration, since if I was just reading on my own I’d have finished at least one of the books by now, haha.
Nice article, as usual. I agree with you that these chapters succeed in ratcheting up the tension while seeming to be a respite from the action. I recall feeling a sense of urgency myself when reading this the first time, wondering when the other shoe was going to drop.
As to the different names each culture or group has for the same thing, yeah I tended to think one name in my head. But at the same time I enjoyed how some of the different names were just so cool. Like the wolves name for the Myrddraal, which is yet to be revealed. When I first read it my reaction was, now that’s sweet.
Having cut my fantasy teeth on Tolkien multiple names don’t bother me. But ‘Halfman’ makes me think Tyrion, not Myrrdal!
Given the number of major POV characters through the series that are Andoran I’d go with Fade as that seems the most common Andoran term
On Nyneave: a big part of her personality is that she overcompensates for her insecurities by being abrasive and overbearing. She really has no reason to be so hostile toward Moiraine–or at least no more than anyone else in the village, and probably less than family members–but she feels threatened by Moiraine’s poise, maturity and experience. Part of it is no doubt the result of her being an orphan and coming into a position of authority at such a (relatively) young age. Her point of views are unique (at least for a book or two, until another of the Two River’s characters gets more), in that she is a very unreliable narrator for her own motivations and reasons. She, along with this other character, is very practiced at self-deception. Of course, all the POV characters are unreliable narrators to a certain degree, things are colored by their preconceived notions and understanding, its part of what makes the writing in these books enjoyable.
As to the names, to me it adds to verisimilitude of the setting and does not detract, so, to each their own.
@gadget #10 Not sure I totally agree about Nynaeve. Yes she overcompensates for her insecurities, but I don’t think she has no good reason to be hostile to Moiraine. In Nynaeve’s view, Moraine does not have the best interests of her fellow villagers at heart but is more concerned with the success of her own agenda. Since Nynaeve is all about watching out for those she serves as Wisdom, her perception of Moiraine’s motivations were bound to anger her.
I’m glad you quoted one of my favorite exchanges in the book. Having known several Hermiones in my life (including my sister) I identified with Egwene right away and this chapter is one of her best moments in the first half of the book.
I think it’s very telling that Whitebridge was so reticent about talking about their Fade incident. In a world with Whitecloaks, it’s better to lie than try to get help when evil strikes. No one expects wants the Spanish Whitecloak inquisition.
Really intrigued by your comments on the interactions between different people. Some of these develop significantly quite quickly and others over time.
Spoiler //
Nynaeve’s relationship with Lan and therefore to Moiraine has some interesting twists.
Perrin to Elyas when they meet in future is one where Elyas is in an advisory role but subservient to Perrin
//
Over the years I’ve decided that while this section may be slow, it’s the jumping off point for most of the characters. We get to see them as they were in their innocence for one last time, but there is no going back now. They are all being forced to change in various ways. Hard truths are starting to get their grubby little fingers into the characters. Oh, it’s subtle. But the fuze is lit and can’t be stopped now. Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve have all had the seeds of their arc planted in the previous couple of chapters. Now the first roots are sprouting for them.
Sigh… these articles are fun for me, and also hard, especially when it comes to making comments. Anyway, thanks for letting us follow a first time reader.
@gadget (#10) and @mp1952 (#11) I think Nyneave does have good reason to feel hostile toward Moiraine. As mp1592 points out, Moiraine’s concern is with the bigger picture, and she makes no qualms about admitting that. Nyneave is absolutely threatened by Moiraine’s experience and poise, and how could she not be? Moiraine has a lot more knowledge than Nyneave does, and therefore more power in every exchange between the two. Nyneave may let her irritation rule her in ways she shouldn’t, but for all she knows Moiraine is a very real danger towards Perrin, Mat, Rand, and Egwene, and it’s only the greater danger of the Fades and Trollocs that makes her an appealing ally. If I was in Nyneave’s shoes, I’d be pretty hostile too, although I think I’d make an effort to hide it better. No use in showing your cards if you don’t have to, right?
@tbgh (#12) If I lived in a world of Whitecloaks, I’d be pretty reticent to say anything too! But I feel like that is a building theme in these chapters; fear and mistrust are such a powerful weapon of the Dark One, and all the followers of the Light being suspicious of each other helps sow discord and prevent them from uniting against the Darkness.
I think I would be tempted to join the joyous Traveling People to. I might get killed and be unable to defend myself, but as a small disabled woman I generally feel helpless anyway. Perhaps it would be wiser to stay amid people who could protect me, but a horde of Shadowspawn could readily kill ordinary non-pacifistic people without Aes Sedai ///or other channelers/// to aid them. Better to live in joy if you can.
(Also, I’m a second-generation hippie, so their culture sounds more familiar that most in this setting. They may have “lost the song,” but they still have the ambient joy of my parents’ generation generation that I struggle to find.)
Though like the Redux commenters, I wonder what their mastiffs eat, and how they have so much food to spare when food is scarce everywhere we’ve been.
“Run when you have to, fight when you must, wrest when you can.” Also a good philosophy, for those who can run and fight. Elyas was my favorite character at this point in the books, weird and wild yet sensible.
Buzz off, Perrin. Egwene can dance however she wants, with whoever she wants.
@Kelsey: Ha, just wait until the aliases and character nicknames really start proliferating. At least the One Steve Limit is in effect, not completely but to an unrealistic degree for such a huge cast – many people have very similar names, but relatively few (though some, mostly very minor) have exactly the same name.
@7: You call it sweet, I call it bloody bewildering. A rant for later.
@8: Me too. It amuses me muchly.
@burog25c (#14) I am getting that sense. I can see in these chapters the early lessons that the Emond’s Fielders are learning and although they’re still pretty much in the dark, they are starting to develop instincts of self-preservation and ask themselves harder questions. It’s really well done, and I look forward to seeing the character arcs you’re talking about and tracing them back here.
@17, I’m a small woman too but naturally aggressive. My impulse when threatened is to fight. I’d never fit in with Tinkers. Also I like meat.
This once a week thing is killing me! You need to post more frequently :P
I like that this chapter begins (it’s the first I noticed it) the common refrain of “Rand would know what to do”, “Perrin would make the perfect comment”, “Mat is so confident” that the boys do thinking about each other. To me its a good reminder that those we view as having there stuff together often feel as lost as we do… and sometimes those who seem to be barely hanging on are doing better than we think.
Rereading through the first half of the book here is startling for me. I’ve read this book 10 times, and discussed it endlessly for 20 years now. Its astonishing how much RJ snuck in this opening section that won’t pay off for decades of reader and writer time.
–Knowing he read the book, I always wondered if the Tinkers planted the seed in Pat Rothfuss’ mind for the Edema Ruh. Not that Jordan invented the archetype, but for that generation of fantasy fans he introduced and/or defined an awful lot.
–Though Jordan likes to overlap names, I’m at least grateful no one mistakes his synonyms for synonyms; goblin/orc has confused enough people for decades already.
Anyway, I’ve always liked these quieter chapters, not just because I love fantasy-as-travelogue (though I do), but in order to make “Save the world!” feel like less of an abstract cliche as a conflict, you have to make the reader feel this is a world worth saving. Of course there’s more to this all than just that, but meeting kind people along the way works for the narrative too.
If Moraine stopped to explain everything she knew they would never get anything done. //Fun fact, killing a Fade earns you the title of Dreadbane in the borderlands, which to Lan is like earning a participation award//
@8 That would explain an awful lot about House Lannister…
What I like about Nynaeve mistrusting Moiraine is that it made me realize – however weirdly obvious it sounds – that none of them read Lord of the Rings. Or any fantasy saga (probably). For us readers, the wizard (or Aes Sedai) coming to village at the beginning of a story is something familliar. I knew immediatelly that Moiraine is “the Gandalf-like character”. But Nynaeve never heard about Gandalf. Of course she doesn’t like Moiraine.
//Moiraine has become good at hiding her own temper behind AS calm, but of course Lan can see through that.//
//Of course it’s Perrin’s ta’veren pull that requires him to travel at the speed of plot.//
Just use the word that is easiest to spell (Fade instead of Myrddraal etc.)
//Maybe they did read LotR. Later Rand comes to an inn named after LotR and says he likes that story.//
Speaking of the Way of the Leaf, I saw Hacksaw Ridge for the first time the other day (a true story of a pacifist who earned a Medal of Honor for saving over 70 lives—ally and enemy—during a bloody battle). Instead of floating around whimsically, couldn’t the Way of Leaf practitioners been more useful to society as surgeons/healers or something?
@28, being of use to society doesn’t seem to be a goal of the Tinkers. At first. There is some joint character development over the series.
@AeronaGreenjoy (#17) Elyas is wonderful and I am very fond of him. “Weird and wild yet sensible” sums him up quite nicely! And I think I can see a bit of a similarity between his way of thinking and Perrin’s, except for the difference in worldliness and experience. It’s really interesting.
I kind of love how thoroughly Perrin misunderstands Egwene’s intentions in enjoying herself as long as they are with the Tinkers. Her awareness of the fact that this may be the last time she gets to relax and have fun is very mature, I think, and Perrin doesn’t see that, possibly because he’s just too stressed to put himself in that mindset, and also because he really just doesn’t like the kind of guy Aram is. It’s a very relatable misunderstanding.
@whitespine (#21) I love that refrain too! Not really spoilery mention of things to come, but I was just working on an upcoming post and a bit that made me laugh out loud was when Rand is being flirted with by a farmer’s daughter and he thinks that Perrin would know what to say! Meanwhile here in this section, Perrin is thinking about how Rand is the one who knows about girls.
@28, being of use to society is a really slippery slope of a concept. The tuatha an (I’m at work typing from my phone on break, not even gonna try to reference spelling atm) are actually a society and culture unto themselves and they seem to be pretty good at perpetuating their society. Additionally, not every small town and village will have it’s own blacksmith and tinkering caravans is a pretty vital and needed niche.
More importantly (trying to avoid getting too spoilery here) there is a very specific, plot relevant/necessary reason for why their culture is EXACTLY the way it is, and I absolutely love that Jordan had the forethought and wisdom to do that instead of just using them as a trope. Besides, most of the cultures and nations that we will meet are typical of the real world in that income inequality, social class inequality, and general stability of life is precarious at the best of times and I find it to be really nice seeing at least one culture that you can really say is generally happy and content with their life overall
You will notice that some of those who say they know everything about the world actually have a lot of faulty information that they cling to as established truth.
The most obvious of those are the Whitecloaks. But it tend to be prevalent in most cultures and societies.
I think that part of the reason to the difference Perrin and Egwene exhibit towards resting/enjoying is caused by the simple fact of why it all started for both of them.
Egwene in a way chose to get out of the Two Rivers, thinking of it as an adventure (though the danger becomes apparent pretty quickly). She is not the primary target of the Shadow and on some level she knows that.
Perrin and the other two boys feel forced to do so and clearly see themselves as targets (not to mention the dreams of Ba’alzamon they keep having). It’s enough to always keep them on edge and be impatient to get rid of this feeling as soon as possible.
Of course the other part is their personalities and how they choose to interpret responsibilities.
@7 Actually, all the names the Wolves give things/people/places are like that, as well those given by the Aiel. I love them all.
@8 + @17: Oh Gods! I read WoT first, so never made that connection in the same way. As many Tyrion’s as the Dark One has Myrddraal? What a horrifying thought!
@12: Not sure if spoilery // I really appreciate the way Jordan uses this trope, I just really wish the mentality of the Questioners was not so prevalent IRL, but that’s extremism for you. At least Jordan makes no bones in this series about how professing yourself to be/ making a show of how you are patriotic in the right good does not make you truly patriotic in the right good, and how people that allow such arguments to sway them or hold their tongues, are as much to blame as the people with those tendencies. (*cough*Jeremy-Corbyn*cough*) //
@27: Because whiteouts: // Rand may have read it, but Nyneave may not have, or may not equate the character connections. She may have heard it read, but getting to be a wisdom has likely restricted the leisure activities that she would participate in, and reading LOTR is something I suspect she may never have gotten around to. //
@28: What @32 said, plus (Spoilers?) // I reference you, the Battle of Emond’s Field. //
@35 It goes beyond the hypocrisy of the Whitecloaks. As you rightly point out in your comments, there are plenty of extremists IRL in our time. But the difference is if some evil group attacked our town (from any side) people would shout it from the mountain tops because most all of us have faith in the system of our country, wherever we might live, to protect us without persecuting us.
Whitebridge is a major town in Andor. It’s got to be a major trading town having one of the only bridges across a large river. Plus, in all the maps, it’s one of 3-5 cities/towns in Andor listed by name. (I know that may be authorial reasons and not in-world.) For a town that important to not feel secure, something is amiss beyond the existence of extremists in-world.
@36. I alway read that as being part of the general state of the world since The Breaking //Humanity and society and culture are in decline around the world. Later on when the group is chasing Fain and the Shadar Logoth dagger south, they pass through a lot of wilderness and it’s explained that most of THOSE kingdoms didn’t fall to enemies, hey just failed to produce enough people to keep themselves populated. Andor is shrinking, even Morgase and Elayne freely admit (to themselves at least) that the Two Rivers is Andoran in name only because it has been generations since Andor has been able to field a military large enough to actually hold half of the territory they claim on maps. This is pretty well established in most every nation we meet, if they aren’t losing territory, then they are losing general culture and civilization. If something had happened with the Pattern and Tarmon Gaidon had been pushed back another generation, I feel like Whitebridge would have been just as independent as Barlon and the Two Rivers.// Just, like many things in TEotW, Jordan introduced us to the first example of the symptom well before we were even told to look for it or what it meant.
mp1952 @11, Kelsey @15
Like I said, she has no more reason to be so hot after Moiraine than, say Tam, or any of the other characters’ families. She is the village Wisdom, not the kid’s guardian (as we would understand it). She runs off half cocked, and despite continued evidence to support Moiraine’s story, continues to be super obstinate for the sake of being obstinate. Are Moiraine’s motives mysterious? Sure are, that’s what adds some of the tension to the story. But shseesh, maybe dial it down a little, especially with an evil abomination/monster around every corner and you really don’t have any sort of solution to the problems, other than: “Give the DO a stern talking to!”
@37 Agreed! //I was giving Kelsey a gentle hint to see if he would pick up on that before Jordan spells it out in my original post.//
Moiraine is one of the most complex and interesting characters in the series for me, and all the more difficult to decipher for how rarely the reader is invited to share her perspective. The manner in which she relates to the Mesopotamians and manipulates their access to information isn’t the result of anything so simple as a desire to control them. Or, not exclusively– Moiraine absolutely has an agenda and is an extraordinarily skilled social operator. But there multiple, complex, interconnected cultural complexes that are influencing her behaviour.
Which is a complicated way of saying she does the things she does because she is the person she is, I suppose.
Egwene I am less impressed with, sadly, and I become less impressed with her every time I read the books. There’s one very specific bone I have to pick with the way in which she interacts with the world around her, but that’s going to have to wait for… seven? Eight? Books until we have enough context.
All I’ll say now is I think reading Egwene as the Hermione of the group is a mistake. That is absolutely who she wants to be, and it is most certainly the image she tries to project, but if you look at the things she does, and the reasons she does them, and the results of those actions… she’s every bit as ignorant and impulsive as the rest of these idiots.
Hemione was never really any better than her boys either, of course, but she always had a strong underpinning of actual competence. Egwene… is more interested in sounding like an authority than actually being one. (Leigh Butler is about to murder me).
If any of these brain geniuses are in contention for the role it’s Nynaeve, with Perrin in distant second.
On names: with the Mydderaal it doesn’t really matter so much, I think. Almost everyone uses Mydderaal- Fade is the typical colloquialism, usually for those without much real experience with them or the incurably down-to-earth (Lan). If Jordan’s putting something else in someone’s mouth he’s probably trying to characterise them as exotic.
But with the Tuatha’an I think it’s a little more significant. That term in particular is usually deployed in a poetic or academic context, but the Travelling People/Tinker divide is an endonym/exonym split. That’s particularly fraught in the context of an otherised and marginalised people- consider Romani vs. Gypsy. There’s a lot of information about a person and how they relate to the group coded in their choice of term.
One of the things that bugs me about this series is how sexist its attempts to not be sexist are. It makes such a huge deal about how men are idiots and women are the ones who are really in charge, even though men still still hold all the overt power in most of the societies in the setting.
As a teenage girl who was just becoming aware of the shortcomings of boys, this was refreshing and reassuring. A decade later, I not only find it unpleasantly heavy-handed, but see Jordan paying lip service to feminism while reinforcing the idea that women are bad-tempered and untrustworthy (Moiraine, a witch, gets much less respect than any of her wizardly inspirations!), not to mention giving himself an excuse to make both male and female characters hateful and fearful. (And just wait till he introduces a transgender character!) Give me actual gender equality any day.
@30: I know the stress of worrying about the future amid people who want to focus on the present. That happens to me a lot when I travel with people when on vacation — they don’t want to squander time in one phase of the journey thinking about the logistical details of the next phase (i.e. think about how we’ll leave a place when we’ve just arrived) but I’m most able to enjoy the present when I feel the future is planned out as much as possible. And I haven’t been in Perrin’s situation, pursued by forces that want to kill me and could slaughter all of the people around me.
@37
The interesting thing about what you observe that there is no plausible explanation for it.
Spoiler:
Humans normally have no problem overpopulating any give area. So what is keeping them back here? In the north maybe the Trollocs, though that is doubtful, but in Andor?
@37 Regarding the state of society Post-Breaking // I think what keeps humanity back is that every time in the last 3,000 years they’ve started to make real progress, Ishamael has come along and F’d it up. He set the Trolloc Wars off that destroyed the Ten Nations, he whispered in Hawkwing’s ear to deny Aes Sedai healing on his deathbed, which triggered the Hundred Years War, which sundered the empire, reducing Randland to squabbling nations again. The fact that they haven’t made much progress in three millennia is all on him. //
In regards to the different names, in my opinion this is intentional and part of the excellent world building that Jordan weaves in to these early novels.
As we start meeting other cultures in the world, having nation X call something a “Halfman” and nation Y call it a “Fade” helps differentiate them in my mind, but more importantly, and without giving anything away (no spoilers!), in later books as we start to learn more about the different cultures in Randworld, I find the words used to describe things actually help *define* the culture in question.
In these chapters, who is the one who called the Myddraal “Halfman”? Well, as we find out more about who he is and where he comes from, I believe that the fact his culture calls them “Halfmen” is meaningful, and teaches us something about that culture, all through the simple choice of that word.
Anyway, that’s a lot of words to say I think that the words to describe things, why there are so many different ways to call one thing something, along with what they evoke to the ‘modern reader’, are an important part of why Jordan chose them because they teach us about the character and where they come from. If that makes sense. :)
As always, nice job with the recap and associated analysis.
I really liked the good character work on Egwene and Perrin in these chapters. More to come as they move forward in the tale but nice bits put into place now.
I also especially liked the odd integration with the wolves and Elyas into Perrin’s dreams. All seemed to know instantaneously when Ba’alzamon showed up and burned up the dreamwolf protecting Perrin and attacked Perrin via raven. Watch out for more dream goodness as things move forward, but can’t be specific now for obvious spoiler reasons.
@37, 45, et al // Note that the Aiel war depopulated the area between Carhein and the Spine of the World. This removed a fair amount of arable land from the wider economy and forced Carhein to import food from Tear, IRRC. Even without famine, constraining the food supply suppresses growth. Depending how long the DO has been able to meddle with the weather, he could have been screwing around with harvests for decades. Just making it rain at the wrong time can be as bad as endless summer.
Constant minor wars or recurring diseases can also take their toll on populations. Andor probably withdrew from the Two Rivers in the aftermath of a Succession or other minor crisis. //
@42 – RJ is definitely spinning sexism on its head (I don’t think he was trying to portray an actual sexism-free society or an ideal that we are supposed to aspire to) and I think, given that his world is predicated on a pretty strictly gender-based magic system (and the fact that one half of it is ‘tainted’), gender dynamics are going to be tricky. There’s interesting discussion to be had on the underpinnings of said system and if the philsoophy behind it is good or bad, but I always had the general impression that the*ideal* he was going for was a kind of complementary sense where the best outcome is always where both sides work together and are balanced. And what we see now is definitely not that.
@tomas (#33) So true to real life, too.
@hassanbh (#34) Oh wow, I hadn’t even thought about it that way. You have an excellent point. Egwene has made a very specific choice, and so she is still making choices, even when things aren’t going as smoothly as she may have hoped. The rest of them, including Nynaeve, are being swept away from what they want by external forces. Of course that would change how you felt about it.
Thank you for this comment. I actually think I sort of forgot what motivated Egwene to be part of this journey to start with.
@gadget (#39) I wouldn’t say half-cocked. She states clearly enough that, in her understanding of her duties as Wisdom, the kids are in her charge and it’s her job to protect them. And the reason she goes after them instead of the families or other villagers is because she, in her mind, has the skills to back it up. She can track even Lan’s trail, she has the connection to Egwene which she recognized on some subconscious level even if she hadn’t admitted it to herself.
That’s probably also part of her irritation, come to think of it; she’s not just there for her own feelings of protectiveness or guardianship but also for everyone back in the Two Rivers. She is representative of Perrin, Mat, and Egwene’s families (Tam of course, having had that talk with Rand and given his approval) as well as the heads of the town. She is acting with their authority but also with the pressure of their fears and hopes to have their children home safely.
But yeah, if you’re out of your depth and relying on someone more knowledgeable for help, it would probably be wise to not be so outwardly antagonistic.
@AeronaGreenjoy: A good point, and highly relatable. Poor Perrin.
@Mara K (#42) and Lisamarie (#49)
I’m really interested in this. Some of the other commenters have suggested that there is prejudice in this world against men because of the taint, but that doesn’t seem right to me. Rather, there is prejudice against One Power wielders in general; the Aes Sedai and the Power seem to be considered by most people to be dangerous and possibly evil, and one assumes that is at least partly because people know what happens to male wielders and that association is affecting how people feel about the women as well. And of course if you are a man who has the ability you’re even worse off.
Regular society, though, still seems pretty recognizable as generic, ye-old sexism, which varies slightly in different cultures. The problem of the taint does shake up gender dynamics somewhat, but it’s not a fundamental difference as far I have seen at this point in my reading.
As I mentioned in Part 2 of the read, I’m not really a fan of separate but equal as a concept. That doesn’t mean that it can’t ever be done well, though, and I agreed with you, Lisamarie, that there is a suggestion in this world that men and women channelers, at least, are meant to be equal partners working together in harmony, and the fact that they can not be because of the taint is a huge part of the reason things are falling apart. I will be interested to see where it goes.
(Also there’s a trans character coming what???)
@52 “Regular society, though, still seems pretty recognizable as generic, ye-old sexism, which varies slightly in different cultures. The problem of the taint does shake up gender dynamics somewhat, but it’s not a fundamental difference as far I have seen at this point in my reading.”
You’ll see from very unusual gender dynamics in some cultures that go beyond channelers as you get deeper into the books, no doubt worthy of discussion at the right time (not now). .
Hi! I just wanted to post a comment and thank Kelsey for such an amazing, thorough, and entertaining reading of The Wheel of Time. I’ve been lurking on Tor for a long time and I don’t think I’ve ever commented, in part because I seem to stumble on the various blogs years after they’ve been posted, but Kelsey’s series is, well, happening right now!
The Wheel of Time was fundamental to my understanding of fantasy growing up, far more essential to my knowledge of the oeuvre than The Lord of the Rings, which I only chewed through much later in life. I’ve reread the series a few times since, and it pains me to say that it did not hold up. As a teenager, the…unusual…gender politics and characterization of many of the women in the story flew right over my head. Not so much as an adult! No spoilers, of course, but the series’ pacing issues also make returning to the books more difficult than some of my other favourite series. That said, The Wheel of Time remains a incredible achievement and features some of the most awe-inspiring scenes in fantasy that rewarded years of writing and decades of reading – as evidenced by Leigh’s hilarious top moments!
Speaking of different words for things, I’m rather confused as to how there appears to be only one language in the whole of Randland. It seems pretty big, and most people don’t travel much, but, despite some regional dialectal differences, everyone is perfectly understandable to everyone else? //Even the Aiel? And the Seanchan, who apparently have been sequestered on an entirely different land mass for…hundreds of years, is it?//
Ah, Perrin and the Tuatha’an. //Even only partway through the series, I love Perrin’s interesting relationship to them, and the way he kind of wishes that he could adhere to the Way of the Leaf, but also feels like doing so is just stupid.//
I have a really hard time liking any Aes Sedai, just because of how manipulative and cold they are. It really turns me off. I can like one for a short while when she’s showing more emotion, but then she’ll turn around and be a jerk to someone and just…nope. Elyas is okay, though.
@Kogahazan!! #41 Agree completely about Egwene. She is my least favorite of all the main characters, and by a wide margin. The reasons why I dislike her become more obvious as the books progress, but even here in the first book we see flashes of who she really is and what she will become.
In for a penny, in for a pound. I’ve really enjoyed reading all of the comments by Wheel of Time readers! So…I hope this is how it works on Tor.
@41 and @56 Egwene is a very frustrating character. Egwene, especially looking back on her from our lofty perch at the end of the series, is not Hermione. Nynaeve is Hermione, right down to her temper, loyalty, and exasperated affection for her friends. I’m listening to the Eye of the World with my wife, introducing her to the books for the first time (she prefers audiobooks). She despises Egwene, it’s quite funny. The (growing) hypocrisy of her character rankles. Nynaeve, though, is awesome.
@42 I always heard that Robert Jordan based much of the women in this series on his wife, who was also his editor, which might explain the glaring blind spots in the series’ portrayal of “women” – let alone feminism or gender equality. Someone correct me if I’m wrong!
@44 Robert Jordan and demographics (and geography…) mix poorly. I always had to dampen my frustrations with his bizarre numbers.
Thanks for all the awesome comments!
@57 For most people, the defining characteristics of a Hermione are:
a) A well-defined moral compass, and a passionate pursuit of justice.
b) A joyful pursuit of knowledge
c) Respect for authority figures. While they might rebel against someone higher up, they STRONGLY believe in their immediate mentor/teacher.
d) Capable. Due to their pursuit of knowledge, they are almost always more capable than anyone else their age.
Nynaeve completely misses the mark on b, only cares about healing with the one power, and c, just look at her relationship with Moiraine. Egwene checks every box.
@tbgh #58 Couldn’t disagree more. The only one of your 4 characteristics Egwene checks without qualification, in my opinion, is (d). Maybe (a) as well, since the pursuit of justice and morality is not always positive But no way on (b) and (c). Egwene’s pursuit of knowledge is obsessive, not joyful. And respect for authority? Really?
Of course, Egwene is my least favorite character overall, while Nynaeve is my favorite female character, so there is that..
Egwene quotes //
“She was not supposed to do this without a teacher . . . but she was too excited by her progress to pay any mind.”
“It is! It is Tar Valon!”
“It was in Tar Valon she would learn – must learn – . . . “
“She had to try without the ring or she could never do more than dabble her toes where she dreamed of swimming . . .”
//
I don’t have a searchable copy. That’s from finding the first Egwene viewpoint chapters in books 2, 3, and 4.
Look at her joyful reaction to touching the source already in book 1. She’s always excited when the chance comes to learn something new. And yes, obsessively relentless. If Egwene isn’t joyfully pursuing learning, I don’t know who is.
And yes, respectful of authority.
// Egwene is the one who is properly respectful to the Amyrlin while Nynaeve is the one challenging her and wanting to walk out of the lesson.// Rand thinks Egwene is uncomfortable in Baerlon, because she’s not sure who to emulate, Moiraine or Nynaeve. // While she does go behind the Wise One’s backs as their student, she also admires them and tries to copy their best characteristics.//
I’m not sure how b and c can even be in doubt . . .
@tbgh It is far too early in this Kelsey’s series of posts to provide the extraordinary volume of proof available to support my dislike of Egwene. I have no desire to white out multiple paragraphs of spoiler-laden text. Let it suffice to say I could write thousands of words on this subject, and we obviously disagree.
@@@@@ tbgh and others discussing Egwene – I had originally typed out a long post with my feelings, but it never posted and now has disappeared. Tor bug maybe? To summarize, though:
My top 3 characters in the series are 1) Nynaeve 2 ) Egwene 3) Perrin. Honestly the only Emond’s Fielder I really don’t care for is Mat, although I do still enjoy his story if not his internal musings (especially in the later books, but I am not going to go there yet).
Although I prefer Nynaeve, I still adore Egwene and I would say she is the Hermione of the series // despite her being weaker in the One Power when compared with Nynaeve.// In my opinion, she truly does approach learning for the joy of learning and enjoys adventure for the sake of adventure in this book (as others have said, she chose to be part of the group unlike the boys). I also think she truly respects authority at this point (deferring to Nynaeve and Moiraine both at various points, deferring to Ila when among the Tinkers). // However, I think she loses some of her love of learning and her respect for authority when she is enslaved by the Seanchan at Falme. // I find this to be logical and understandable, and I empathize with her. Of course, she is a strong character with many viewpoint chapters, so different readers will naturally feel very differently about her based on what they bring to their read of the book. I personally find myself willing to give Egwene more grace than the boys and Nynaeve based on the fact that she is the youngest of the group (I believe only 16) and based on the fact that some of my behavior at 16 makes me cringe today.
Once again Kelsey knocks it out of the park. I am so impressed with his analysis and disappointed that it takes me several reads to get as much out of a text as he gets out of it on the first read. The one thing that is amusing me is that // he seems to not have picked up on Nynaeve’s attraction to Lan being the reason for her constant irritation with him. // That is one thing I actually noticed my first time. I am glad it will be out in the open soon, unlike a certain other romance involving our cast of characters that comes to fruition MUCH MUCH later…
@tbgh et al., I think in a series like The Wheel of Time everyone will have different characters that they could connect with when they were the right age or temperament! Egwene is a much more enjoyable character in the early books where, yes, she expresses a joy to learn and become an Aes Sedai – both admirable qualities and similar to Hermione, one of my favourite characters of all time.
In the first few books, in particular, my favourite characters have always been Nynaeve, Min, Perrin, and Lan. Moiraine and Rand are both awesome, if more driven by the plot. In the later books (mild spoilers) I can’t wait for // Aviendha, Rhuarc, and Berelain (I know, I know, but she’s just so funny), while Perrin becomes…Perrin. // Anyways, I can’t wait to see Kelsey’s take on our ‘old friends’ as he encounters them for the first time!
@61 I’m certainly not trying to convince you to like Egwene. I think some of the things you are saying about her are directly contradicted in the text, but we can come back to this when they come up.
@62 Agreed that she does change at that point. However, you do still see flashes of those traits . . . // at least up to the point where she is named Amyrlin in LOC, and then she has other concerns besides knowledge for the sake of knowledge, and no one above her to emulate. //
Can we please ixnay the detailed discussion of character arcs through the entire series? Too potentially spoilery, even when we white out the juiciest bits. Thanks.
Re Egwene, I do recommend that Kelsey, in one of his potpourri posts, take a look at the “Ravens” prologue from the teen-oriented From the Two Rivers/to the Blight” version of EOTW, which, as I recall, is in Egwene’s POV set several years before the events in question. That will help give some solid (if early) info about her motivations and approaches to challenges.
Egwene was my favourite character when I read WoT for the first time. Then, she was about my age, I liked that she joined the “Fellowship” of her free will, and she did seem to enjoy her part in the story more than others. As I grew older, Nynaeve became my favourite character and she still is. Maybe in a few decades I will find out that Moiraine is my favourite!
I started to get really frustrated at all the mistrust in these chapters. If I could start communicating with wolves, I would be really excited. I’d have a wolf at my side all day everyday. Everyone’s mistrust of Moiraine started grating on me more and more. She’s saved you guys a few times by now…cut her some slack? But then I started to think about the cultural beliefs of the world Robert Jordan is setting up. This is really emphasizing just how much everyone mistrusts people who can touch the One Power and just how devastating the breaking of the world must have been. I love the contrast of people also giving Aes Sedai a begrudging place in the society because fear of the Dark One trumps all. So I suppose I can understand the mistrust now.
I think all of this points to the big picture – that the world needs the Dragon Reborn but the world will burn for it. I love that contradiction and I’m really excited to see it playing out.
This also brings me to another clarification question I have. Is the Dragon reborn every age? Is the world broken over again at the end of every age? Was there a time when the Dragon was reborn without the taint and nobody worried about the world being destroyed as a result of his coming? Was Lews Therin the first dragon or just the first dragon to be turned insane as a result of the taint? Should I just shut up and keep reading?
Kelsey @@@@@ 52
FWIW – I purposefully tried to stay away from using the words ‘separate but equal’ because that phrase are SO loaded in our culture as they basically are now associated with something that was clearly NOT intended for equality and the whole concept was predicated on viewing another group as obviously NOT equal.
So I don’t think the relation of genders and saidar/saidin is separate but equal in that way but just…two distinct things that are definitely different, but both are needed for balance and together can be more than the sum of their parts. Like night and day. Of course, your (general you) acceptance of that concept will also depend on how distinct you think gender is.
#42 I really have to disagree with your (and many other people, too) assessment that the series is sexist. The few Kings in the series are often mere figureheads whereas Queens, Aes Sedai and others I can’t mention without getting whited out are the real powers. I believe that, even after three thousand years, an almost genetic distrust of men still exists. After all, they broke the world.
Kelsey, your frustrations with Moiraine are justified and shared. Her refusal to share her knowledge with the Two Rivers folk serves two purposes, one for us readers, one for the world they live in. The suspense obviously keeps us readers turning pages. In their world she is acutely aware of the prophecies and that they must unfold in their time and place without interference particularly in these early days. If she told the three boys on Winter Night that one of them was the Dragon Reborn I doubt they would’ve left with her. Beyond that, all Aes Sedai seem to enjoy keeping folks guessing.
@70 //I remember a response I posted to someone on Dragonmount (around book 7 or 8 I think) who complained that there were no more interesting male characters being introduced. I posited that as our heroes moved up in the world, they were dealing more and more frequently with world leaders rather than Gleemen and Thief-catchers. I also feel that was intentional by Jordan. There is a definite prejudice by Aes Sedai as a whole against men, and as the secret powers behind the throne, they tend to support and have the best relationships with female rulers. Therefore, more female rulers.//
Kelsey it’s been fun reading your progress. Especially as someone who read eye of the world in a brand new first edition to give you an idea how long ago . I enjoyed your pov on the wolves. And seeing how astute some of your observations are. And aren’t.my biggest advice keep an open mind and and try not to judge based on current events . RJ was a military historian Vietnam vet and a southern gentleman who turned common patriarchal ideology on its head. And as a different kind of traveling man I wouldn’t be so sure in reference to your previous read if he didn’t intentionally mirror his take on coming out. Keep up the blog it’s fun seeing the shiny eyed wonder of youth. Longtooth out
Naturally, in a series with this many fans, there are going to be disagreements about characters that people like and dislike. However, I feel confident in asserting that the single most polarizing figure in all of WoT is Egwene. For me, personally, she’s my favorite character, but I can certainly understand why she rubs a lot of people the wrong way.
ClanOblique @57: Yes, RJ stated that every female character in the series has an aspect of Harriet (his wife). My personal favorite: Semirhage is Harriet when he forgot to take out the trash! :-)
@Lisamarie (#69) I can see whta you mean. I do like the idea of there being separate parts that make a whole; I think that I would like it better if it was presented without a black and white gender component. But you make an excellent point: I do not see gender as even a little bit distinct, so I’m definitely not set up to buy into the premise even before I’ve seen how it’s executed. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be executed well or do some interesting things, and I fully expect to enjoy a lot of it. But I’m also going to always be seeing that flaw too, I think.
@warderwannabe (#70) I do think that the Aes Sedai are in a difficult position, given that they are carrying a burden that they were never meant to carry alone. The events following the Breaking has probably resulted in a long slow change amongst their ranks where the general distrust and fear of channelers grew over time, and the Aes Sedai became more close and secretive, and then people became more suspicious, and then the Aes Sedai became more secretive, etc. I can’t blame Moiraine for playing her cards close to the vest, but as the person with the best hand she has to realize how that effects those with her. Then again, maybe she knows exactly what she’s doing. Since we’ve been in Nynaeve’s head, it’s easier to identify with and sympathize with her.
I think the issues with Egwene and Perrin in the tinker camp are two fold. I think that on Perrin’s part he sees a girl who was, for all intents and purposes, supposed to be the wife of his best friend. It was pretty much stated at the beginning of the book that it was Egwene’s plan as well. So it seems like she’s cheating on him. The second part seems like it’s Perrin not giving Egwene enough credit. Aram’s a little bit of a playboy and makes it clear to Perrin that he’s trying to hook up with Egwene. Perrin isn’t interested in Egwene, but is protecting his friend, Rand’s, interest. He doesn’t give Egwene the credit that she can see through Aram.
On Egwene’s part I think it’s simple rebellion and freedom. The same as when she took her hair out of it’s braid. Flirting with Aram is just another sign of that freedom and cutting ties with what her life was before.
You talk about Moiraine keeping secrets. When I was younger, this behavior with her and with other characters in other books really bothered me. I hated it and couldn’t wait for the info to be revealed.
I can’t say I like it much better as I get older, but I do understand it more. The reasons you listed are good ones. It can be that they don’t want to interfere. What if you had a character who was destined to marry another character. If you tell them that, then they just sit around waiting for it to happen, instead of going out and doing the things that would lead them to meet and fall for this person.
I think a lot of the times you keep it from them for the same reason you might from children. You don’t want to frighten them. If a child is in a dangerous situation, you tell them it’s okay and to just stay right there till you come to them. Think about some of the things this heros do, and they’re usually from some back water. If you go up to them on day one and say, “Hey, I know you haven’t ever been out of this safe back water, but I broke up with my fiance and do you think you could pop on down to Mordor and return this ring for me? You can take your friends, but you’ll probably be seperated from them, almost killed, and basically have to do it on your own in the end while facing great odds. . . Yeah, right past the Cinnabon and before the Apple store, just chuck it in the lava. Here’s the receipt. Thanks man.”
I think the reason for Moiraine’s particular deceit will become clear later on in the series and answer this question for you. You posited that Nynaeve would get farther with honey than with vinegar in regards to Moiraine, but I think you’re wrong. Something you’ll learn about Aes Sedai down the line is that if you don’t fall in line, you get run over rough shod. If you do fall in line, then you’ve just finally gotten in line with the program, but you don’t get an ounce more info than they want you to have either way.
Here is another interpretation that I don’t think is spoilery, but I’ll attempt to white it out anyway. Here goes. Elyas, who you’ve already stated seems wordly, might have experience with Aes Sedai. I can’t remember if she gives aways that she’s going to become an Aes Sedai at this point, but the wolves could have given it away, and it’s a safe assumtion that a woman traveling to Tar Valon might have inclinations that way. He might know how an Aes Sedai, like Moiraine has demonstrated apttly, might talk circles around you. He might appreciate that she’s already started that. Then again, he might just appreciate a good burn.
Yeah, good luck with the names thing. Jordan makes a point of showing multiple cultures. It’s a toemaytoe/toMAtoe thing. The different cultures have different names for different things. You’re getting off light with only three versions here. Just pick the one you think is coolest and mentally replace it whenever you come across it.
@tgbh(#57)
Awesomely done. When in doubt, make a list!
@mp1952(various, but especially #61)
You have every right to (severely) dislike Egwene; in fact, that you have that is something that should be completely obvious. Different people will hold differing opinions, aka subjective facts, as true on the same events / people / etc., after all. However, the absolutely crucial thing to keep in mind with that is that those subjective facts should never, ever, obstruct your view on the objective facts. The thing is, the 4 criteria @tgbh laid out for “The Hermione” aren’t really open to interpretation. As such, it’s entirely obvious that Nyneave doesn’t fit them. And it’s also fairly obvious that Egwene does. //I mean, sure, once she gets chosen as Amyrlin by the Little Tower her respect for authority becomes significantly harder to notice, but that’s because being the Amyrlin Seat means that, at that point, Egwene pretty much IS the highest authority. And even then, she still holds high respect for the Laws of the Tower, although on the other hand I admit that is something Siuan had to instill in her. On the other other hand, instilling that in her cost Siuan no trouble whatsoever at all, so I still think it counts as a high level of respect for authority// And, throughout the series, she will always be looking out for new knowledge to gain. //This goes to the extreme that her Heroic Sacrifice comes by means of a never-before-seen weave that she had just invented! In case I wasn’t being obvious enough, that means that her insatiable lust for knowledge remained until what were literally the moments of her death.// So, all in all, you may think Egwene is a rather hateful version of a Hermione. I don’t, because by the end of the series she’s my all-time favourite. But regardless, whether you think Egwene is a hateful Hermione or an awesome Hermione, my point here is that I don’t think there is any valid argument that can be constructed for saying that she isn’t a Hermione at all.
@ClanOblique(#63)
You actually have to actually make the colour of a piece of text white if you don’t want Spoilers and semi-Spoiler-ish text to appear in your post. …….Or did you know that already, was it a simple oversight on your part, and am I just being obnoxious for feeling the need to point it out to you in this fashion?
Moiraine and Nynaeve in fact have the same goal here, to find the youngsters. Nynaeve seems to be upset that Moiraine isn’t more emotional about this and insists on thinking rationally and triaging. Moiraine is no doubt annoyed by Nynaeve’s emotionalism. It is logical to assume that if Egwene is still alive she is with one of the boys. And remember all four know what the next stop was supposed to be and can be assumed to be making for it if they are able.
Since you mentioned spelling: it’s Mistress Luhhan. Also a typo in the last paragraph: “creeper” instead of “creepier”.
Having so many names for things is awesome in a way, since it really fleshes out how different people think about those things and also helps define those things when they aren’t things we normally know about. What does “Myrddraal” really mean? Who knows? But “Fade” now…we can think of them being stealthy. Halfman: they aren’t human even though they sort of look it. Eyeless: they have no eyes even though they can somehow see perfectly well. And so on. Each name illustrates an aspect of what they are and helps us understand them better. Same for all the names for the Dark One. Renaming a person comes into play several times later on too.
@69: “two distinct things that are definitely different, but both are needed for balance and together can be more than the sum of their parts. Like night and day.” I think the analogy of night and day is really interesting. Together night and day make up the totality of the daily cycle, and over time it might even out to approximately the same amount of time for night and day each, but in any given 24-hour period you’re probably not going to have an even balance, unless it’s an equinox. And you don’t even have to think of it as a pure dichotomy if you don’t want to: think about sunrise and sunset, where one bleeds slowly into the other.
Although in WoT it definitely is a dichotomy: a channeler can only wield saidin or saidar, never both. // Although there is another sort of Power out there…//
I’m so late to this thread, but something that I always noticed about Egwene (at this point in the story, at least) that nobody seems to be talking about: She knows she’s not going home. She is leaving the Two Rivers on purpose, and for good. Perrin, Mat, Rand, and Nynaeve all at least originally think that they’re going to go home and take up their lives where they left off. Egwene’s whole point is the opposite. So of course she acts differently than the others, less homesick, less eager to cling to old ways of doing things. She’s moved on. They haven’t.
I don’t know what the Heck’s wrong with Moiraine. She handled Rand, Mat and Ewin beautifully before she was outed as an Aes Sedai. Why couldn’t she go on using those tactics after? She’s a beautiful sophisticated woman she can have teenaged boys eating out of her hand with the slightest effort and without doing anything inappropriate. So why doesn’t she? Is it beneath her dignity or something? It woudn’t kill her to be less confrontational with Nynaeve either. Granted Nyn is far from a reasonable woman but still!
So, how bad is it that I am enjoying the actual Post as much as the comments that follow?
It almost feels like I’m in a book club of sorts. It’s awesome, so Thank You to everyone for making my evenings after work much brighter! Although 2 years late, but better late than never.
It made me giggle how we cannot decide who is the “real Hermoine”, Egwene or Nynaeve and even had boxes to check off. (Although I would disagree with Joyful Pursuit of Knowledge). Hermoine’s pursuit was anything but joyful to me. Maybe it was joyful to her, but it was borderline obsessive to anyone who is not an Erudite. (Yep. I brought Divergent into this);
Hermoine is extremely annoying and very fun spoiling, much like Nynaeve is, so I would probably make that parallel. rather than the one with Egwene. For some reason Egwene just sort of exists in the story right now for me. Other then Moiraine thinking she could one day be a phenomenal Aes Sedai…there’s really not much more to her.
I’m also very surprised that Mat isn’t getting much love…I wish we had a POV for him.
Anywho…just my 2 cents. (or 3). Now…back to reading.